Artist Gretchen Durst Jacobs

SPEAKERS

Rodney Veal, Gretchen Durst Jacobs, Ad

Gretchen Durst Jacobs  00:00

I think, what if all the time, what if it doesn’t necessarily mean change, like, what if I changed it to this color, or changed it to that? But it’s like, what if this happened, if something else happened? That’s the other thing that keeps me going from one thing to, you know, from one painting to the next painting to the next painting. Rod

Rodney Veal  00:26

Hello, everybody. This is Rodney Veal. The host of Rodney Veal’s Inspired By and today, yet again, I’m always talking about fanboying out, but, um, but it’s because I just love all of the guests we have on the show. But this, this is a really special guest, because we’ve actually collaborated together on a project, and so I’m super excited to talk about that and so many other things with the ever delightful and amazingly talented Gretchen. Durst Jacobs,

Gretchen Durst Jacobs  00:56

hello,

Rodney Veal  00:57

hello, hello. I tell you, I you know, I elevate, I elevate, I elevate. And you are so worthy of it.

Gretchen Durst Jacobs  01:05

So, Oh, thanks, thanks. I appreciate that.

Rodney Veal  01:08

Oh, no, it’s not, but totally My pleasure. All true, all honest, and so what I love. And Gretchen, we’ve known each other, and I don’t want to put time on it, but you’ve known each other for a while, a while, but we’ve known each other in the capacity of our own individual art makers and things like that. But what’s really lovely about today, I think, is the fact that I get to find out your and share with the world your origin story, your thoughts and ideas about art and art making. And I need to go all the way back to the beginning, like, when, where, how did this love of art take hold of your life?

Gretchen Durst Jacobs  01:49

Wow, that’s a long way to go back.

Rodney Veal  01:53

Well, you know, I mean, I know it all depends, right?

Gretchen Durst Jacobs  01:59

Yeah, I would say early, probably, like 12 ish, 1112. Ish I started. I remember the first time that somebody got all excited about something I drew was in grade school. I did a report on Abraham Lincoln, and I remember I did this drawing of him, and that was the only thing I remembered. And I remember thinking, this is the coolest thing ever to be able to do this, to be able to make this drawing. And I was pretty young, because I remember the format of it. So I think that’s around 12, and the teacher, somebody got all excited. I just remember that parents teachers, whatever. My parents were both musicians, and they were also both educators. So my mother was elementary school teacher. My dad taught band and music in the Dayton schools, so and was a musician. Is himself a percussionist, but he played every instrument. So art was a little different for them. I think I they were supportive, but they also didn’t really understand it. You know? It was one of those things.

Rodney Veal  03:22

So, oh, I know the mystery it is. Yes, it is kind of a mystery. When you’re you’re dealing with sound, and all of a sudden there’s someone who’s not dealing with sound, right? I mean, that’s a whole,

Gretchen Durst Jacobs  03:33

that’s a whole different ball of wax. And, you know, I had to play an instrument. It was like, it was, I was demanded. And it’s not that I didn’t like music, but, you know, it just didn’t do it for me like visual art did. So going through all the instruments, because my dad taught he would come home. Okay, try the flute, okay. Try the trombone, okay, try the so I stuck with piano Gazette thought, well, I have to do it, and I can do that. And I did it for eight years. And now, of course, I wish I would have stuck with it, because I have my dad’s marimba, and if I remembered how to play piano, I would be able to play this marimba anyway. So they Yeah, but they did let me. I went to the Dayton Art Institute for classes really early, and then I took classes from a neighbor woman who I babysat her kids, and she was not that much older than I. I think at that point I’m probably 14, and she was probably barely 20, and she had these two little boys, and we would and kind of crazy. What she had us do is pretty important. I think now, when I look back, we had to copy master painters. And, you know, that’s what I went to the studio school two sessions. And one of the things we would do is go. Copy painters, you know, copy the masterworks. So that’s what we did. And she started us out with oil. She’s like, we’re not doing watercolor, we’re not doing acrylic, and you could draw, but so that’s what I started out doing. And it was fun, because she was so young, right? I mean,

Rodney Veal  05:22

oh yeah, you know, there’s just something about that. There’s something like, it’s like, yeah, she’s cool with it. She’s pretty,

Gretchen Durst Jacobs  05:29

you know, yeah, yeah, because she she felt cool, and she was really funny and warm, and she made it a lot of fun

Rodney Veal  05:36

talk to me about the high school, high school experience. Because, you know, you know, we talked about, you know, high school has been a weird, weird time as an art maker.

Gretchen Durst Jacobs  05:44

It was so I didn’t do a lot. I did art classes, you know, in high school, but it was heavy in the crafts, and I didn’t like the craft part. And it’s for some reason I figured that out without really

Rodney Veal  05:59

kind of, kind of Yeah, you just kind of knew, yeah, yeah.

Gretchen Durst Jacobs  06:03

I didn’t like any of the projects we did when we did crafts, and that’s probably how I figured it out, but the art classes were a lot more fun and engaging. I went to Kent State for a couple of years and dropped out young, and I went back to school later, probably about 10 years or so later, to Sinclair to finish up a graphic design, yeah, graphic design degree, because I was doing graphic design and I needed some kind of degree. I was in Texas at that time. I mean, before I came back and finished the degree, and then did graphic design jobs at Lexus, Nexus was my last employer as a graphic designer. And, you know, did things like went back to school because they paid a lot of your school, 75% and just got a a degree in marketing, because that would give me a raise.

Rodney Veal  07:11

We understand that

Gretchen Durst Jacobs  07:15

absolutely, I know and I couldn’t do the the design degree at UD, because the classes were in the day, and they wouldn’t allow that, so I could do this night, night school thing. So I did that. I went to a lot of different I went. I’ve got a lot of education, I guess. And then, gosh, I while I was at LexisNexis, I somehow fell across these two art museums that had this business called The Art source, or I called it the art source, but it was a business that helped local artists market and sell their work. And I thought the Dai should do this. So since I was at LexisNexis with all these great marketing people, I asked one of my friends to help me write a business plan. I pitched it to the Dai and Linda Lombard was part of that, and it, they actually went for it, and was when Alex Nargis was there. Okay, so yeah. So they put me in charge of this for about a year, a little over a year, and we placed a lot of artwork at Kettering hospital. That was the first big job. But in the process of doing that, I kept meeting all these wonderful artists, and it became, you know, painfully clear that that’s what I wanted to do. I didn’t want to, you know, I didn’t. I liked doing the art source, but I wanted to make the work because

Rodney Veal  08:43

it was, it’s different, yeah, very different to kind of promote and elevate other artists and art, and you’re like, ooh, right, that looks like fun. I mean, there is an enjoyment. There is an enjoyment to make it, yeah, yeah.

Gretchen Durst Jacobs  08:56

And it was painful because I, you know, I had put a lot of work into starting that business, and I remember I was just crying for days. Couldn’t figure out it was like a loss when I Finally Quit, or left the art source, and it went to devac at the time, and then I think it has followed through to the CO but I had the opportunity to go back and finish a BFA. And then after that, I finished, or did my MFA at UC and in between those two, I did two summers at the New York Studio School in 2002 1003 and that totally rocked my world. That was, yeah,

Rodney Veal  09:46

talk to me about New York. I mean, I mean you were, I mean you’re just taking, I love the fact that you, it feels like you’re, you did this kind of fearlessly. I mean, there’s this stuff Well, I mean. But hindsight, obviously, at the time, I mean, what do people think of you go to go to New York for these arts, arts residencies. And I think my

Gretchen Durst Jacobs  10:09

husband, when I look back, it was him that was so he was so supportive. And he’s like, you have to do this. And this is a guy this. He’s a lawyer. He was General Counsel. It likes, you know, he doesn’t have, you wouldn’t think, right, that that someone in that area would understand it. But he, he was very persuasive that I should do this, because I’d come home and say, Well, I heard about this studio school and, you know, New York. And at the time, I had a 16 year old daughter and I and it was his stepdaughter, and I was worried about, what is she going to do all summer? Because it was, it was almost three months. It was two and a half months I was there. So we set her up with all sorts of activities for the first year, so she was too busy to get into any trouble. There you go, you know. So that was a relief, but I think, I think it was his support. And I’d say at that point in my life, I was close to 40, and at that time I felt old, which is so stupid

Rodney Veal  11:23

now you look back Absolutely there’s a moment, right?

Gretchen Durst Jacobs  11:27

And I felt like I needed to hop, jump on this now, because time’s running, time sticking. And I think that feeling has always stayed with me, and that is a driver for me to do things. It’s like tick tock, you know, now, now or never, now or never, yeah,

Rodney Veal  11:47

that’s a phrase one of our executive producer of the art show, her favorite phrase was always, tick tock. Tick tock. Like we got, we got things to do, tick tock, yeah, but it, but that, that ticking of the clock, especially as a, and I’m going to say a artist of a certain age, because I, you know, I don’t believe in this whole thing about your old artists or young artist, or you’re either an artist or you’re not, as far as I’m concerned. I mean that that, yes, I just find it very fascinating that the the your lawyerly husband said, pursue your passion that is wild.

Gretchen Durst Jacobs  12:25

I know, I know. So, yeah, and New York, this was early 2000 This was before. That was before 911 and the first time, and then the second time was after. It was three years after, and I had made good friends the first time, still friends and still keep in contact with with a couple of them. But the studio school was so intense and so rigorous. I mean, like bloody intense. We would be there. We arrive, I don’t know, eight, nine in the morning, and then Graham Nixon would do critiques, and I wouldn’t get home till about midnight. Wow, you know? And I remember, towards the end I was walking back from the subway, and in New York, I wasn’t afraid. It was a different time. It was in the early 2000s it was a different city than it was in the 80s and 90s, you know. But I remember walking, and I thought, I can’t feel my legs. I really can’t feel anything. So I got after that was over, and I got home, and I started seeing some massage, body person, people that I go to for those kinds of things. She said, I think you’re, it’s your your nervous system was like shutting down. She’s, that’s one of the and it was just a lot of stimulation, right? A lot intense. But I would do it again. I would do it again.

Rodney Veal  14:01

I love that, yeah, because who I mean? I mean that it’s an immersion. I don’t think people who are not artists understand, right, that you have to immerse yourself into this. You do this is not a you step in, you step out. It’s pretty much every decision is kind of connected to it, and you’re in the upper center of it, because New York, oh, yeah, as much as I love Dayton, and I love Dayton in the southwest Ohio, we’re doing some cool stuff here. New York is, I know,

Gretchen Durst Jacobs  14:33

yeah, and, you know, I think, and we were, we were, were so immersed on weekends, then we would meet at the Met and draw, or just go look at or go to a show. You know, we would get these invitations connected to the school to see artists works in a gallery, in a show. So it was totally immersive. It would, it was fantastic. I didn’t really want to come home, you know. Wanted to come home to my

Rodney Veal  15:02

family, but I wanted to kind of, yeah, do you feel in many ways that you kind of brought that immersion with I mean, you can’t help but be affected and changed by it also, but also too. It’s not just that. It’s like, what else you bring to it? Like, yeah, it comes with it, yeah, that vibe and that feeling. And so, yeah,

Gretchen Durst Jacobs  15:22

I think so. And I think I have the work ethic, because my lawyer husband will say, past this past year, he’s like, You work so hard, I think you work harder than I did. And I’m like, Nah, I don’t think so. But I mean, it’s totally different, you know, it’s totally different kind of work, but I know, like again, I think the time element, there are certain things I feel really driven, even now, to try to accomplish. I don’t know if I will, but I want to give it a really good try. And if to do that means it’s not a part time thing, it’s every day My studio is in my house. So I’m pretty lucky that way I can I’m lucky that way because I don’t have something pulling at me like my my daughter’s well grown by now, so a lot of people don’t like studios at home, right? Because it’s too much other

Rodney Veal  16:24

interactions, yeah, distractions, interruptions, their whole notion, right? I always feel guilty because I’m working and I look over and like, you know, you could be doing laundry. You could be let me move to it. I think I you know, but you found a way to make it work, because a lot of people don’t space for an artist, is the toughest question that I think to answer right where it is comfortable to be creative in? And do you make it your home, or do you make it another place? And then it becomes, it’s a question of cost, and just how far away is the studio, then you’re driving, then it’s, there’s so many

Gretchen Durst Jacobs  17:03

things, right? I mean, you know, Gene Kohler and I had a studio at Front Street back in the day. Oh, that’s right. I mean, I moved out of that almost 15 years ago. Like, was it for 2011

Rodney Veal  17:17

So, yeah, that’s, yeah,

Gretchen Durst Jacobs  17:19

14 years ago, and Front Street was very different. Yo, really different. And was really different when she first got there, because she had been there a

Rodney Veal  17:28

while, yeah,

Gretchen Durst Jacobs  17:31

yeah, before we started sharing it and and the commute wasn’t bad there. But I have to say, since I’ve been in my studio here is a little smaller, but it’s not small by any means. I have an office. I have a closet for storage. I have all the storage closets in the house are it’s a big old house, and it was built as a kind of like a it was house in the front and then a house in the back, but the walls were opened up. So it’s a lot of space, yeah, but it works, and work it, yeah?

Rodney Veal  18:09

Well, this, I find that interesting. Do you? Do you have a typical I mean, because I was, I have never asked someone this question about their studio space, and I’m very curious. I mean, I, you know, the whole notion I see photographs, and I’ve been to other studio spaces, you know, that kind of, I must have white walls in order to kind of see the work. But you’re such a color driven artist, I kind of curious, like, do you have an all? Is it all white?

Gretchen Durst Jacobs  18:37

Yeah, it’s all white. Yeah. This is, this is green that you see, because it’s the office, but the studio is right there, and it’s all white, and I repaint it with either, like, primer when it when it gets dirty, because it gets really dirty, you know, paint flies, and if you’re doing charcoal that, so, yeah, I keep it white. Somebody was saying they can’t work in a white studio, and I need the white I think, because I work with a lot of color, it’s got to have a boundary, right? That’s not interfering with what’s happening on the surface or on the matrix. So, yeah, I find that works pretty well. Did you hear that? I heard that funny. I love it. Oh, my God, it’s my watch.

Rodney Veal  19:28

Your watch is talking. I love it.

Gretchen Durst Jacobs  19:30

I will put it over here. Oh, this. I love it. Well,

Rodney Veal  19:33

that’s interesting, because I’ve kind of, because I’m very curious about because I, I do have an all white space as well, but I’m not, I’m not painting, but it’s just because I’m using so much color, and I’m using I just, you can’t, there’s, you know, you just need to see it in this kind of that stark boundary sort of way, right? And, and that’s an and, like you said, I what I might, what I love, you know, we talked about, we’re talking about color, is the fact that you. Color, even in the current iteration of the abstractions that you do. Let’s go back to like the kind of work that even 15 years ago you have evolved. And so talk about that early the Earth, the the early work, because there was still a driven sense of structure and color, but not enough, the sense of total obstruction,

Gretchen Durst Jacobs  20:23

no, no, and I don’t see it totally Well, it is correct. Yeah, I’d say, you know, I started out landscape. I remember when I I remember when that kicked in, that that love of the landscape was when I was at Bright state. And you know, we would do paintings in the studio of still wives, and I was sort of like, okay, and then the figure, and I’d be thinking, okay, but when we went outside, it was like, Oh, my God, this is intense, and it’s insane, because so much is happening and so much is going on. And if you shift your gaze a quarter of an inch, it’s a whole different thing, you know, that that’s what I liked. Evidently, I like the adrenaline and the sort of intensity of that, because it felt similar when I was at the studio school, you know. So the outside, working outside, and I pick things like woods or thickets that are really complicated, I’m not interested in the big VISTAs, you know,

Rodney Veal  21:34

kind of well there’s this interweaving of because I know, I know what you’re getting at. I mean, right? And it’s like, yeah, there’s something really interesting about that, and the fact that you focus in on it, when other people would probably go, let me pull way back and see sky, horizontal skylines and sort of it just the that depth of the horizon seems to fascinate people more. And I’m like, No, that doesn’t fascinate okay? And I’ve tried it too, and I’m

Gretchen Durst Jacobs  22:12

like, yeah, yeah. And well, nature was really big. I kind of skipped over that in my upbringing. My parents were sort of amateur naturalist. And we were, my grandparents had a farm. I spent most of my summers from like seven year old till 12 or 13, right when you’re like, I don’t want to spend the farm my summer on my grandparents farm anymore. I want to hang out with my friends. But I did that for years, and it was back in the day when it’s like, okay, I had breakfast, what next? And then the rest of the day. It was like wandering all over this farm, you know, in woods, and nobody’s worried about you. And there was a dog. There’s always a dog that would accompany me sometimes friends that were in that area, you know, farm, farm, family friends. But so I think then the natural world, it was just my parents loved it, you know, they were always, I didn’t sort of testing us, what leaf is this, what tree is this, you know. So we kind of had to know what trees were and which trees were what, but so that played in. Plus, I think I just naturally loved it. And I also feel like the landscape, for years was this was an emotional solace. There were some difficult things in my life going on, and I thought often that the landscape can reflect to you, like the struggle, you know, especially in a woods where one tree falls on another and it sort of deforms in order to grow, but it still grows. You know, life still goes on. And you know, nature can be really violent, like incredibly violent, and still resilient, and still can go on. And I think those things I always found to be really fascinating and like us, like people, so because we are nature, right, as Pollock said, but yeah, I think those things really stayed with me for a long time. So I stayed with landscape almost 25 years, probably, you know, 27 years, yeah, yeah.

Rodney Veal  24:30

I mean, that’s a long stretch. That’s a long time. And like I said, there’s a, there’s a demarcation line. I mean, in 25 years to this, this place you’re at now. And I’m kind of, I was always curious. I was curious about where you’re at now based upon that nature influenced sort of landscape, ish, look and feel of your work. And it was like, Where, what was the, what was the kind of switch? Switch? Yeah, absolutely.

Gretchen Durst Jacobs  25:00

Was it was slow in coming. I’d say it was 10 years in coming. I would work in the studio for a while without going out in the landscape and feeling like, this, isn’t it? I don’t know what I’m doing. And it was scary because it’s, it’s, it’s a big it is a big shift, sort of, but I don’t think it’s that big for me. When I look at it like I see the through line, and I can feel the through line,

Rodney Veal  25:26

and I can sense it. I sense it and feel it as well. Much more natural, right? It seems more the word I use was organic.

Gretchen Durst Jacobs  25:36

Okay, yeah, that’s makes sense. I think for I sort of came to realization right as you, as artists, I think, and I don’t know everybody, everybody grows and develops, and you see yourself differently as you grow and develop. And I saw myself and understood why I painted the landscape more clearly as time would go on. And really what I was interested in, of course, I’m interested in nature, but I’m also interested in the human like the human condition. You know what it’s like to be human, and of course, the emotional component of that, also the intellectual component of that, of that. But my paintings, I knew even when they were landscape, were highly emotionally, emotive. Some were more than others. Some were more subtle. You know, it wasn’t as obvious. So that became the most important thing for me, I think, in the work. And I knew if I was in a studio, I wanted to try some different things, like, what if I, at that time, I was only working in oil, and at that time, I thought, What if I just want to shift and start working on something with black and white acrylic paint or charcoal. And in a studio, it’s easier physically, because you can just pivot and shift. So I started doing a little bit more of that, and then I realized this is what I wanted. And then I’d still go out and paint a little bit. And then it just became primarily working in the studio. I still go out and do some small things from nature. But I also like memory, you know, memory in the feeling of something. And someone asked, How do you start? And I thought, that’s such a impossible question, but also super simple, you know, you start, where you start? You start by, I I never have trouble with ideas. There’s so many. There’s always so many things I would want to do and explore so but there’s a prevailing. There’s a prevailing, I guess you could say topic or theme that I want to explore, and the grid is what I’m working with now, yeah, which I kind of fell into, but I also love the structure of it, and it did help, I feel it helped me understand abstraction. Because abstraction is way I was painting before was so and is, well, I was gonna say it was so intuitive from nature, but I still looked at a lot of the Masters right and thought along their lines, right, right, right.

Rodney Veal  28:37

You do kind of take the thing, the tools, from that kind of exploration of especially the masters. I mean, it’s, it does come into play, yeah.

Gretchen Durst Jacobs  28:49

But I think the grid, when I, when I fell into it, what I was doing was this massive sheet of paper, like 52 by, I think it was 70 something, and I taped a grid out, and I did, had made this entire painting over, the whole thing with the tape in place, and then I pulled it out, pulled the tape off, and the intent was to cut them up into little squares, right and right. Well, when I pulled the tape off, I’m like, holy, you know what is this? It’s so different. Yeah, it’s like, this is not going to be cut apart.

Rodney Veal  29:22

And that happen? That happens a lot with a lot of artists that I spoke to, and a lot of artists that make it’s like, it’s that it’s, I call it the happy accident, most of them, it says it’s that your intention and your execution leads to another intention or reality that’s like, Oh, this is a better reality, yeah, better realization of an idea, right? Oh, you know, absolutely.

Gretchen Durst Jacobs  29:46

And I think that’s how I start. It’s like, Well, what did I just finish? And I don’t have to think about that. It’s still with me, and it’s pulling me on to the next, and then to the next, and then to the next. So, because there’s always something, I. As I’m working on something, I do think about what’s next, like the next painting. I’m going to use this idea, but I’m going to change maybe the scale or the color or the whatever, right? So there’s never a shortage that painting I looked at for almost a year and a half trying to figure it out. I kind of went on and did other things. But I I hate to say happy accident. I think these things are intuitive, and you know what you’re doing, you know what you’re doing, but you don’t know at the time that you know what you’re doing, because it’s sort of subliminal. I think painting is a lot like meditating. You’re in a zone, right? And it’s not, not always happy all the time. Sometimes it’s a struggle. You know, things aren’t going right, but it’s not like, I can make a painting and think about what I’m going to have for dinner. That doesn’t work.

Rodney Veal  30:56

I don’t think it works for anyone. It’s like, Yeah, you had to. It’s kind of this thing that with dance that we always say you have to be present. Yeah, you have to be present. You just don’t, yeah, don’t worry about the did you lock your car door? Did you, you know, it’s like, what am I gonna eat for dinner? Like, I need to go get a massage? No, you’re dancing. You’re moving in this moment. Because I find visual artists, everyone is talking about that as well. Visual Artists and musicians is about being present. We hear these phrases about being present, but no one really sits down and actually defines it like, yeah, that’s

Gretchen Durst Jacobs  31:36

being present really. You know, I think artists of all kinds, if that’s that is being present,

Rodney Veal  31:43

yeah, which makes us kind of subversive and scary to other people

Gretchen Durst Jacobs  31:48

I know, and also they just don’t get it. So you get that sort of glass eyed stare back at you, and then I think, Okay, never mind.

Rodney Veal  31:58

You’re not You’re not following. Okay, it’s okay. It’s okay, maybe one day, yeah.

Gretchen Durst Jacobs  32:06

And I don’t mean that as in a judgment way at all. No, no. It’s just, how do you explain it? Right? How do you

Rodney Veal  32:13

how do you explain the drive to be present and to make work that’s creating based upon memory and ideas and thoughts and just layers of things. It’s more layers of things that go into the work than even we could even articulate, right?

Gretchen Durst Jacobs  32:33

And I think that that’s yeah. And I think as you bring that up, people are asking me, well, what’s the work about? Yes, it’s about the natural world and those kinds of things. It’s also I study things like sacred geometry, right? Kind of fell upon that. And that’s really the laws of nature have this, not laws of nature, but things in nature have a structure to them that is mathematical, if you break it down, you know, like snowflakes the inside of a shell, the development of petals in the middle of a flower. You know, those follow these, really, I don’t want to say complicated, but these intricate patterns that I think is interesting. I use that to help me with the grid when I got interested in the grid. So those things are interesting to me. I study shamanism. I’m not a shaman, but I study those practices. So it’s a spiritual thing as well. And the kind of shamanism and the component that I really like works with the animal world and sort of the natural world, and that makes a lot of sense to me. I know I’m not really explaining what all that is, and I don’t think we have time.

Rodney Veal  33:58

It’s a it’s a podcast. We take the time. I mean,

Gretchen Durst Jacobs  34:02

but, but, yeah. And I think that, I guess, to sum it up, is that study in shamanism, again, it’s, it’s being really present. It’s this form of meditation. When I, when I do that, it’s, it’s a form of meditation, and it’s a connection. It’s a connection with the natural world. So, you know, all these things. And then, of course, my parents as musicians, music was constantly

Rodney Veal  34:28

going, rhythms, right? Rhythmic patterns, rhythmic patterns to your work too.

Gretchen Durst Jacobs  34:32

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I know. And my dad was loved jazz. So there was a lot of jazz. And then my mom like opera.

Rodney Veal  34:41

So, yeah, talk about grand scale and right, a rhythmic, I mean, what? That’s the thing about what we what you’re exposed to, kind of feeds into it. Yeah, feeds what. Out you without you naming it or defining it, right, right? And I think that that’s to me, that’s what I find fascinating. Because I’m I’m at that place with I’m in this weird place of I’m still making, I’m still creating, I’m still moving what you’ve seen, what you have seen, and still and and so it’s such a but I’m also helping tell the stories of artists and art makers. And it kind of sharing that, that hoping, that people under kind of go, my hope, and this, you know, I never really probably have even articulated this to the station is that I hope people want to explore a little deeper, versus then, versus the 10 second drive by when you go to a museum. I was like, if you don’t make it out of the medieval art section of the museum, that’s okay, yeah, that’s a good day. It’s not the I didn’t see it all. No, right focus in like, be present to that and kind of explore

Gretchen Durst Jacobs  36:09

immersion again, like you mentioned earlier, yeah,

Rodney Veal  36:12

yeah, it’s like, and so we, we’re kind of hardwired that way, but we’re kind of, and that’s what makes us very, I think, intriguing to the world and I but I hope that they’re getting that message, like, folks just don’t your work invites more investigation. That’s what I love about what you’re doing. Like it just, it’s, it’s, and that is, it’s got to be really satisfying when people say, I really like your work, but they’re saying it from different works of life and right? They’re responding to something that they’ve been told, abstraction, what does your work mean? And they it has to have meaning, but the meaning is already there. You just pay attention.

Gretchen Durst Jacobs  36:55

Just look, yeah, it’s so, yeah, abstraction gets a hard wrap, right? For people who aren’t visual art, people, you know, and I’m sad sometimes, because I think it makes it can make them feel stupid or dumb, you know. And it’s that’s sad, yeah, I think it’s intimidating when it doesn’t need to be intimidating. And it’s like, forget about what you’ve heard or thought, just look, look and feel and pay attention to what you’re thinking and you’re feeling as you’re looking at these what’s happening, right? Yeah, what is

Rodney Veal  37:34

happening in your day and your life that led you to that space to be in front of this work informs how you see it, yeah.

Gretchen Durst Jacobs  37:42

Sure does, yeah, yeah. Kind of reminds me of like when you first saw I remember when I first saw a Franz Kellie painting. I was really young, like barely teenage, and I remember seeing it, and most of what I’d seen up to that point were like Rembrandt COROT and Van Gogh and what you would expect constable. And then I saw this Franz Kline, and I’m like, Is that legal?

Rodney Veal  38:11

Is that legal? That’s legal. Can he do that? I call it art. Can you do that? I call it art. I mean, that’s I mean, that’s legit.

Gretchen Durst Jacobs  38:20

And I was so excited, because I thought, oh, my god, somebody cracked the code and and from an early age, that’s what I wanted to look at. You know, really sought that out was, where’s all the abstract, what they call abstraction, what is, where’s that? And I had I look at it, and it totally baffled me, right? Whereas, when you look at represental representational paintings there, I don’t want to say easier, but there’s such an open door, right? To experience it with abstraction. There’s still an open door, but it’s a little different, you know, I suppose I can’t find the word, but, yeah,

Rodney Veal  39:04

it’s a, it’s a, you know, the shape and form of the door with representation, but the shape and form for an abstraction is not a rectangle. It may not be a rectangle. It could be, it could

Gretchen Durst Jacobs  39:21

be something else, right?

Rodney Veal  39:23

And so you sense it, you know you’re supposed to walk through, but because it’s not presented to you in the way that you’re supposed to walk through, right? Human nature to just pause, right? It’s, it’s kind of the same thing in comparison to modern dance and classic the classical dance, which I sometimes, I go, it dances, dance, but then you start to realize there is a different kind of structure. But there’s still a structure to modern dance. And there’s still, there’s still a structure to abstraction. It’s not just, oh yeah, lapping. People think that that’s what we’re that you as you’re. Doing it’s like, no, no. There’s some methodology. There’s a kind of intention and an intellectual pursuit. And so there may be moments where you’re just staring at it before you actually act right, that you need the space to do that before you make that initial

Ad  40:17

I’m Bonnie miles, membership coordinator of cet Thank you for listening to Rodney veal’s Inspired by this podcast is a production of cet and think TV two local PBS stations as PBS stations, the work we do online, on air and in the community is supported by listeners like you. If you’re enjoying the show and would like to support our work, please consider becoming a member at CET, connect.org, or think TV dot O, R, G, plus, when you sign up to donate at least $5 a month, you’ll get access to special members only streaming videos on the PBS app through passport. Learn more at CET, connect.org, or think tv.org If you’re enjoying this conversation, the art show, also hosted by Rodney veal, is available to stream anytime from anywhere on YouTube or the PBS app.

Rodney Veal  41:06

This whole notion of like you were talking about, we were talking about obstruction, and we’re talking about the different portals and entry points, and then it’s just this where you’re at with it, I guess is the you know, you finish that thought, so to speak.

Gretchen Durst Jacobs  41:21

Yeah, I think often my work now, I’ll go back to something I experienced when I was outside working in plein air, and I feel like all the work is always tied into the natural world. How I start something, you know, the movement, the movement of nature and the structure there is still with me. So that has helped me figure out what abstraction is for me and how I want to move it forward. And, you know, after this show, I’m thinking now, okay, what’s next? And I’ve already had thoughts about what I want to sort of tweak or pull out, you know, not completely change, but what’s the next step? And it’s right there and just waiting for me to dive in,

Rodney Veal  42:23

I love that’s a because, gonna ask you about that, because that seems to be because you have all the, it’s, it’s the that’s why it’s so important to show work, and to see a body of work is to be able to step back and go, Okay, what am I seeing? What am I feeling? What could be the next iteration of this that’s not that’s based upon, wow, I didn’t expect that reaction, or I didn’t see this at that time of the day. So what about because, you know, that was one of the things that did that your exhibition at the Dana Wiley gallery was this conversation about seeing movement connected to your work, right? And that’s how and that’s how our collaboration started, folks, absolutely.

Gretchen Durst Jacobs  43:16

And I think movement has always been really important to me. You know that when you’re out in the landscape, it’s constantly moving. The light is changing like immediately. So some some painters will think of it as sort of a when they make a painting, it’s a chronicle, sort of of the light, and it might change in the painting, like this section may be lit a little bit differently than this section, and it may not be extremely obvious to the viewer, but it sort of hap has to happen if you’re painting from observation, right? Because you’re getting different you’re getting different light. So that’s a subtle movement, but the big movement, I think, is what really what? And I was talking to Jennifer, sorry

Rodney Veal  44:03

Cooper, who danced in your space. I’ll explain it, folks, we’ll explain it after you, right?

Gretchen Durst Jacobs  44:09

Well, we started talking, and she said, you’re very somatic. And I would say, Yes, that’s true. And I don’t think I knew I was that for quite a while, and then I would say, in the last five or 10 years, realizing that for me, the way I paint, it’s it’s a lot of it is large. It’s not huge, huge. It’s sort of like my arm width. You know, if I put my arms out, fingertip to finger, right, that movement with my whole arm, versus my movement with the wrist, that’s what, because then you get in it,

Rodney Veal  44:45

it’s an embodiment, yes, where? And I think that that was one of the reasons, I think that Jennifer responded to it, and so did Stevie, and so did I, and I was like, you know. Oh, oh, yes, this is, this is the when she says somatic, I was like, Jennifer, thank you for articulating words that I couldn’t articulate, because it’s and then when you have a somatic practice, it’s a full body. How do you motivate the body to move? As an art maker, how do as a dancer, even Yes, because all we are all using our bodies, irregardless of musician, writer, like your body is pushing this right. Let’s close your mind so.

Gretchen Durst Jacobs  45:35

And I think there’s some people who are aware more of their bodies than others, like when I do write, I can’t do it for I have to write. Then I have to get up, and then sort of pace, no. And then then I sit down and I write some more, and then I get up and I pace, or I do something. I’ll throw a load of laundry in, but my head’s all in the writing part. It’s but I have to move. You have to move. I have to move. And the work I make in the studio, I don’t sit and do anything except for maybe at the end, if there’s a tweaking of some color that has to happen, yeah, I want to make some small changes. I might sit for that, but the rest of it is, it has to be standing. And, you know, the more I can move, the better. And there’s a back and forth. There’s getting close, backing up, walking around, getting something, you know, it’s Yeah, so

Rodney Veal  46:29

because the thing is, it was as I promised the audience. What happened a couple months ago? We did a performance a group of a couple of collective of dancers. I was one of the dancers, moved inside the space to the artwork of Gary henchy, and you were there. And then you said, you talked about, I had this dream about movement and space. And the thing is, we have, I said, Well, I know some dancers, we can make it happen. We found some dancers, and we can make it we made it happen. And I remember the experience, and it’s my friend. I owe them the video I’m still working on that. What was it like to take something you saw as a dream of having movement connected for movement from movement makers right in your space. And how did that change now that you now that, now that the exhibition is down? How did those just like a two parter there?

Gretchen Durst Jacobs  47:31

Yeah, well, you know, I remember the performance that you were in, and for Gary’s, right? Yeah, we’re sitting in that circle and Rose passed out the elastic stain, you know, stretchy things to people sitting in a circle, so it criss crossed, right? Because she would pick opposite ends, like the die

Rodney Veal  47:55

on the die, yes, yes, because Gary’s work is so linear,

Gretchen Durst Jacobs  48:00

linear, right? Yeah. And she’s dancing, and I’m like, she’s dancing in a grid. I could hardly contain myself through that I could imagine. And then you and then the other dancers. It was just phenomenal. And it reminded me that I had this dream, and when I had the dream, it’s one of those things, you’re like, oh, it’s kind of a weird dream. I don’t know, you know, it’s like, you don’t, but I dream a lot, and remember them a lot, and I think that’s a part of, I think it’s part of how I do what I do. But, and then I remember thinking, I don’t know if I should mention this variety or not. Is this really weird?

Rodney Veal  48:38

I’m glad you didn’t. I’m glad you. I glad you summoned the courage to mention it, because I said I was immediate. I was like, Yeah, sure, I

Gretchen Durst Jacobs  48:49

know you got really excited. And I was like, Wow, he’s really excited. Yeah, okay,

Rodney Veal  48:55

oh, I could see it. I yeah, I even knew the dancers, those dancers were chosen specifically, right?

Gretchen Durst Jacobs  49:01

And the dream, the dream was this, this grid on a massive stage that the grid itself moved and bent on its own, but it also moved with the dancers, and these dancers were climbing on it, and there was these flowing color costumes. And that was kind of the, basic idea of the dream, and that’s what, yeah, so it has, it has put a whole different spin, no pun intended, on how I think about movement, and how I think about movement In my work. So, yeah,

Rodney Veal  49:41

it’s just, it just, it’s that simple. Sometimes I feel the simplicity of our saying, yes, that of that the dream wasn’t crazy, and then getting the dancers in the space and having that experience, and we’re having this conversation about it is that that’s, that’s, that’s a sweet. Spot to me, to me as an art maker. You want to be in a room with other art makers?

Gretchen Durst Jacobs  50:05

Yes, I’d say it was a highlight of the show, like, hands down, the best part of my show that I think that I got out of it were the dancers in that performance, you know, just to think, to experience, their experience of looking at the work and their response to to witness that. It’s like witnessing somebody else witnessing, you know what I mean? Yeah, and I it’s not that I didn’t think it was possible, but it’s, it’s just made it really, I hate the word rich, but it was. It’s just made it resonate.

Rodney Veal  50:40

There’s a resonance. There’s a different it just does it just, yeah, right? And it’s a ripple effect. And I think that’s the other thing about it, because now it’s like, okay, this could be another iteration of movement, but the next artist has that Dana’s space. And so it’s completely different group of artists, right? And so it’s like, I just is this intriguing. And there used to be a time when all of the Arts did have these kind of present interactions, yes, and that things would come out of it. And I think that’s, I mean, that’s what I find very fascinating, right?

Gretchen Durst Jacobs  51:19

I would like to do more of it. I’m not sure how or what that looks like. You know? It’s an invitation, yeah, it’s an invitation. And it’s, it could be vice versa, where there’s a dance and then I respond or something. You know what? I mean? It’s, oh, yeah. I’m not sure how it would work, but I

Rodney Veal  51:40

think use our bodies as the paper. I’m just saying,

Gretchen Durst Jacobs  51:44

right? I, I

Rodney Veal  51:46

feel my face got all excited again. That

Gretchen Durst Jacobs  51:49

was the face I saw when I told you to dream. I

Rodney Veal  51:52

was like, Oh yeah, let’s, let’s do this like, I, I, there’s a way I what you’re envisioning is not that far off. I mean, the bodies. Use the bodies as the brushes. Let us go. Oh, Gretchen, I love it. I love it. I mean, so I, you know, it’s just what I just what I that’s what I love coming to get to know you in the last couple of months. I mean, I’ve known you and I’ve known you, but it’s just a fact that there’s still this curiosity and there’s still this questioning, not in a dark way, but a questioning the like, oh, what? What if

Gretchen Durst Jacobs  52:37

it’s always what if that is you’re exactly right, I think, what if all the time, what if? What if it’s it doesn’t necessarily mean change, like, what if I changed it to this color, or changed it to that but it’s like, what if this happened, if something else happened. And that’s the other thing that keeps me going from one thing to, you know, from one painting to the next painting to the next painting, which I don’t want to say that printmakers are the only ones that think of that, because it’s totally not true, right? But as you know, I’m involved with the Dayton printmakers cooperative, and in the last probably 10 years I’ve been more immersed in it, and there is printmaking is a slower process than painting. There’s a slowing down, which I really kind of like, because sometimes it can be happening so fast with me that I I enjoy that moment of pause. But in printmaking as well, there’s a lot of materiality like the way the ink lays on the paper, right? That interests me. There’s risk, and there’s things that happen that can’t really be explained, that interests me, but it’s, it’s the what if that is so intriguing. When you stop, when you stop, when I stop having that moment, I know I’m in trouble. Oh, yeah. So I have

Rodney Veal  54:14

a question, because one of the things we’ve been this season is this question. It’s not necessarily. It takes its many forms and shapes. One of the is it’s around the theme that of creativity and imposter syndrome. And, no, you made the face, did you have to explain it? I mean, talk about like, how do you battle that? Because, I mean, that’s okay, yeah, because, I mean, I’m because I battle it

Gretchen Durst Jacobs  54:43

and I swear on your podcast, yeah, I’ll try not to okay.

Rodney Veal  54:49

It’s okay. Give him permission.

Gretchen Durst Jacobs  54:52

It is. It’s incredibly sneaky and difficult. And there’s times when I think I’m all. Right? I don’t have that devil on my shoulder talking smack in my ear, you know, right, right? But it happens. I think it. I know it happens, even to the best of us, people who are feel have a real, solid, you know, grounded sense of themselves and that kind of thing. I feel it a lot, and I feel a lot more than I probably want to admit to myself, not to others. The most important thing is what you admit to yourself, right?

Rodney Veal  55:34

And that’s that truth, that that’s a person, that’s that truth, is your truth, not the Yeah, right kind of signal to the rest of the world. This is, this is about when you are staring in your studio, in your space, at your work and what you’re doing. It’s like, what are you telling yourself, what to

Gretchen Durst Jacobs  55:53

Yeah, it’s and when I say, when I think, when I say, it’s important to what I tell myself and what I hear, because that’s what everyone’s going to see. That’s that’s really hard to camouflage. You can’t really, you know, people can kind of read that in your work. But one of the things I do is I almost don’t allow judging, or criticizing or critiquing my own work until I’m really done with it, until it’s completely what I feel like really finished. And I force myself to not do that, because it can shut any it can shut anything down in a heartbeat. If you, if you do that too soon. I mean, the reason I say too soon is it, it has to be done in some way. You’re going to have that moment of of judging things right, not like if it’s terrible or or great, but if you know, is that working? Is that what I want is

Rodney Veal  56:58

I did, I did, I did. I did. I complete the assignment as right attempt it, in that, in that, like that imposter syndrome that not going to doubt can’t just paralyze you for trying the next piece you can that expands upon the idea

Gretchen Durst Jacobs  57:16

you can. I think age has helped me, because I don’t give sometimes, like, what somebody else may think or feel. And I used to that, used to be that loomed large, you know. And I don’t know the turning point for that, but I think it’s like, you know, I guess I’m, in some ways, I’m closer to the end in my life than I am the beginning. And it goes back to Tiktok. Who has time for this thought about what you can or cannot do, or what you think is not I don’t have time for that. So what I do have time for is introspection, absolutely,

Rodney Veal  57:58

absolutely, yeah, and that’s and to keep that key that introspection is not, I love how you said, not in the in the sense of judgment, of denigration, of destroying, because a lot of times we, you know that we allow that, that that devil on the shoulder, to just literally

Gretchen Durst Jacobs  58:20

destroy, oh yeah, first, I’ve seen it happen.

Rodney Veal  58:24

I’ve I’ve seen it derail some really talented artists and and so it’s, I think it is a product of time, but I think it’s also a product of time, and the time that was spent and what was ingested, and that time that was spent, right? It’s the it’s the love of family, it’s the love of the outdoors, it’s the love of that nature’s emotion. I mean, it’s all of the things in that and I think, and I think that that’s what you perfectly embody right now. It makes it exciting. It makes it exciting to see what you’re going to do. I mean, that’s, that’s where the pressure’s on, no pressure, no pressure. Don’t see this pressure. I won’t see it as joy, because, yeah, I smile. I, you know, when I don’t smile, that’s when people should be scared. I’m not smiling. I There’s a problem. You know, you may not want to hear the what, yeah, and it’s really funny, because when you said that about tick tock, I just watched this really good. It’s related, but it’s I watched our former First Lady, Michelle Obama, and she said, she talked about, if I’m lucky, I’ve got 30 more, 30 more summers, yeah, if I’m blessed. And she says, So why am I going to waste my time right with anything that I don’t think I need to spend my time on,

Gretchen Durst Jacobs  59:44

yes, in doing that’s it. Bingo, right there, right?

Rodney Veal  59:48

And you’re embodying that, yeah,

Gretchen Durst Jacobs  59:51

and it’s not that I don’t get taken down by doubt, by self doubt, by self criticism. Oh. Course I do, but I think what happens is I stay down a lot shorter length of time, and it moves through quicker. And then I realize, hello, okay, you had your moment. Are you done now? You know we need to we need to move on. We need to move on, move on. So it’s not that I don’t allow myself to feel it, because you don’t want to do that.

Rodney Veal  1:00:23

You don’t want to suppress it. You just, that’s the key. Don’t suppress it. Yeah, you

Gretchen Durst Jacobs  1:00:27

got to feel your feels, so, but you don’t have to wallow in it to a point of that’s where it becomes destructive, right? Just really wallowing in it. So, yeah, and I think the excitement right now, I am excited about the work there have been years when maybe that wasn’t quite as intense. So I plan on, you know, going with that as long as I can. You know,

Rodney Veal  1:00:56

I know you will. I just, I just have a knowing sense of that. And I’m hoping that, I’m hoping that we could find a figure out, a way to to to make the grid with the with human bodies, yeah. I want to explore that idea. Yeah, off of the podcast. So, okay, so Gretchen, you are such a delightful force of nature, and you’re just so talented. Beyond talent. This is beyond talent. This is about a sense of artistry that just it’s manifesting itself in the work in a way that just stops us in our tracks and takes our breath away. So thank you. All right. Well, that’s how I feel. So that’s how I feel.

Gretchen Durst Jacobs  1:01:40

Well, I really appreciate it. And talking with you is always a delight. So, yeah, there’s that.

Rodney Veal  1:01:47

It’s big. It is big. So thank you for being a guest on the show.